62 top goes up, motor keeps running

[uglydukwling]

Last time I raised the top on my '62, everything happened the way it was supposed to, until the deck lid was down and locked. Then I heard an electric motor still running in the trunk. Moving the switch to the "lower" position had no effect. The lid didn't raise and the electric motor continued to run. Turning the ignition off didn't stop the motor. I was too busy to investigate it, but fortunately it was already in my barn, so I just disconnected the battery and left it. Now it's winter and I probably won't get back to it until spring, but I thought in the meantime, I'd better do what I can to prepare.

Presumably, the motor I hear is the locking motor. If the pump motor continued to run, shouldn't I hear a relief valve squealing?
I guess I'll have to take out the back seat, but is there anything else to check first?
Which relay (or limit switch) is the likely culprit, and is it even accessible from behind the seat?

[defrang]

‭Call one of these experts:
(813) 390-1950‬ John Cashman or John Brewer (303) 757-4282‬

They will know which limit switch needs adjustment or replacement. They have the correct parts if needed also.

[JAB]

First, if one of these motors is running if the battery is simply connected, then disconnect the battery. It is likely that you will ruin a motor or pump if it runs too long too long.
You will use a jumper battery, or an assistant to reconnect the battery at the correct moment.

Power to actuate your relays comes only when the top control switch is activated. If the top control switch has failed and passing current without activation, you can unplug it to cut off the current. If that stops the problem, send me the switch for rebuild.

Keep in mind that the deck unlock/lock system will make a repeating click, click sound when the deck is locking. If it is unlocking the sound will be more of a thump, thump as the screws turn to their limits repeatedly.
The top motor will make a humming sound even if the top is all the way down or up. Too much of this will simply blow the pump. There is no relief valve to "squeal", but something will break if you run it too long.
Your flipper motor will not make any noise if it is activated because the deck being closed will keep it from rotating. But activation like this can burn out the motor.

If unplugging the top control switch does not solve the problem, then one of your relays has stuck on. The bad relay could be the top up, top down, deck up, deck down, flipper up, flipper down, deck lock or deck unlock.

Start by pulling the back seat and disconnecting your deck unlock relay first (battery now on then off), then your deck up relay (battery now on then off). If one of those is bad, the sound will go away when you disconnect it.
If not, go ahead and jumper the deck lid up by first jumping the deck unlock relay then the deck up relay. I like to use a jumper battery to apply power directly at the relay body plug.
With your deck up and your car battery now briefly reconnected, you will be able to immediately identify which motor is running... deck lock/unlock, flipper up/down, top up/down. This also identifies which two relays are suspect.
Call me and I can talk you through testing the relays.
John Brewer
Brewer Classic Lincoln
303 562-8368

[uglydukwling]

Thanks for the suggestions. As soon as I can convince myself it's warm enough to work (maybe not until spring), I'll test the relays in the sequence you recommended. I probably have a picture somewhere that identifies the relays.

Before I pull the back seat, I guess I should try disconnecting the top control switch. When turning off the ignition switch didn't help, I assumed that if it was being bypassed, the top control switch was also being bypassed. Is the input to the top control switch live even with the ignition off?

I don't remember whether I heard a click or thump, or just a hum. I guess I wasn't really paying attention because I was in a hurry to get the hood open and disconnect the battery before any damage was done. Now that I know what to listen for, I can briefly connect the battery and listen again.

[JAB]

If the Neutral Safety Relay has been jumpered, the top control switch will be constantly powered when the ignition is turned on.
I agree that it would be a wild scramble if the top is trying to operate all by itself with the key is in the off position.
John Brewer

[uglydukwling]

Various circumstances have kept me from working on the car for the last 2 years (and there was no place to go anyway), but now that the world is functioning again, I'm back to working on the car.

Switch is ok.

Disconnect deck unlock relay. Motor keeps running (just hum, no click or clunk).

Disconnect deck raise relay. Motor keeps running.

Jump deck unlock relay. Deck unlocks. Motor keeps running.

Jump deck raise relay. Nothing happens. Motor stops running. It looks like, in spite of my efforts not to let the motor run for more than a few seconds at a time, it's fried.

At this point, is there any way to raise the deck, other than unbolting the rams from under the car? I'm always nervous about taking out 60 year old bolts. Even if they don't strip or break, they never seem to go back in exactly the way they came out.

Once I get the deck raised, is there anything other than the pump motor I should check?

[bd94s10]

Here is a visual for what you can try. JAB (great guy - I've had him on Lincoln Addict Podcast and he's the expert) described in detail above via a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jfPy9Yo-EU

Good luck and please keep us in the loop. Please note: when I first got my '64 we had to take the hardware out from below and nothing was damaged. My car was/is far from a perfect car and I would trust the process IF you have to go that route. It will be fine and will go back together with no issue (it did in my situation).

[uglydukwling]

I thought I had it fixed. I had to unbolt the lift cylinders to manually raise the rear deck lid. Not nearly as bad a job as I had feared. I got the pump off. The motor was really horrible inside. I can't imagine how it worked as long as it did. I had the motor rebuilt, but the pump looked ok so I just replaced the seals. Everything seemed to work (I never did find a defective relay). The top went down. The deck closed. Everything seemed fine. But the top wouldn't go back up. I thought maybe I hadn't gotten the system thoroughly bled. I took the deck cylinder anchor bolts out again to lift the deck lid (The unlock motor works).

In both the deck lid raise cycle and the top raise cycle, I can hear the solenoid click and I can hear the motor run, but the cylinders don't extend even slightly and the fluid level in the reservoir doesn't go down, except for a little bit of fluid that splashed out when the pump was running. It seems like too much of a coincidence for the deck lift and top lift solenoids to fail at the same time, so the only thing left is an internal problem in the pump, unless someone can point to something obvious that I'm missing.

To get access to the pump to remove it, it looks like I have to raise the top. The only way I can see to do that is to disconnect the top cylinders and try to find enough helpers to lift the top by hand. Is there a better way?

Assuming I can get the pump out, what am I looking for? The obvious explanation is that I assembled it incorrectly, but it did work when I installed it, although only briefly. Is there a part that could have failed or fallen out of position?

[Lee]

You may have stumped our convertible experts, but I’m curious, did you ever try to open the deck using the jumper method (attached)? Whether it does or doesn’t may lead to a clue, or exonerate the pump. Also, did you use brake fluid or ATF upon reassembly?

[uglydukwling]

Yes, I tried the jumper method. The lid unlocks. Moving over to the lid lift relay, the solenoid clicks and the motor runs, but the lid doesn't go up, so I had to unbolt the lift cylinders to raise it.

With the lid open, jumping the top lift relay, same thing. The solenoid clicks and the motor runs, but the cylinders don't move.

Raising the top manually to get access to the pump wasn't as bad as I expected, either. With the cylinders disconnected, 2 people can raise the top easily.

Now that I have access to the pump, I guess the next step is to take it out and dismantle it, unless someone has a suggestion for something else to try first.

I used atf in the reservoir. That was what was in it and I have no way of telling when it was switched from brake fluid.

[Lee]

I was only asking to confirm you hadn't inadvertently mixed the two. I'm afraid my droptop experience is mostly limited to helping a friend with his '57 hardtop convertible, but i think I might try and crack open a line to see if the pump is actually producing pressure before removing it. Might just be a stuck valve.

[Mike]

While i love the convertibles its frustrating times like this thst makes me feel better not having one... nah its only what us sedan people say

[frasern]

Disclaimer: My '62 top has not worked in years, and I have not done anything with it yet, so I'm not speaking from experience.
If the top pump is working, and relays are working, I would check the hydraulic solenoids. Ensure that power is reaching them, then check for flow.
Just like bleeding diesel injectors, just crack the hose, run the pump and see if it bleeds. Wrap the fitting with rags.