2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering problem
Moderator: Dan Szwarc
2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering problem
I am looking for guidance on the following, it's a bit of a long story.
I got a check engine light on my 2017 3.0L a couple of weeks ago. Local Lincoln dealer diagnosed the issue as defective cylinder heads. Seemed surprising as the car only has 21,000 miles on it, but okay. The repair is complete.
While the car was in for this engine work, I asked the dealer to do an alignment on the car. This is because I had an alignment performed in August as a preventative measure. There were no issues with the alignment at the time, but since then I noticed an ever-so-slight pull to the left since then. The steering wheel though is pretty much dead center, though.
However, I received a call from the dealer that they were having trouble realigning the car. They are a bit stumped as to why. They claim everything suspension wise that is visible looks fine. Their thinking is that the subframe is bent and that the car was in accident.
For the record: I bought the car in 2019, Lincoln CPO (not from this dealer) with 9,100 miles on it. CarFax was fine. I was told it was never in an accident and there are no visible cues to this - no paint issues, no gaps, no bent wheels or other parts. Nothing visible. I have never been in an accident.
The only other clue/head scratcher is that the struts and hardware,, according to this dealer, look have been replaced with salvaged parts (see photos). They think this because of the yellow chalk - picture is of left side, right side looks the same - marking up the mounts "L" and the dots. I never replaced this in the two years I've owned the car, so if these were replaced, they were before I got the car in June 2019, but nothing was disclosed about this at the time.
I started to drive the car home from the dealer today and, well, it was pretty scary - and I've driven some classic cars that have left me stranded. At a stoplight, the steering wheel is dead center. But upon even slight acceleration it's like a ghost is driving. The steering wheel flies off to the right. Then when I slow down, it slowly recenters. The car didn't seem to actually pull much, but the wheel is pretty scary.
Of course, this never happened prior to me bringing the car in. Everything with regards to steering and alignment was 95% fine before bringing it in for the engine work.
I immediately drove back to the dealer and told them how shocked I was at how the car was behaving. At first, they told me I need a body shop to look to see if the frame is bent - but then decided to keep the car for a few days to investigate further. They want to bring it to their body guy to check.
However, in speaking with MY body shop guy he says it's very unlikely that there's a frame/subframe issue here. That is because he says the subframe just bolts on and bolts off (which is also what one of the Lincoln dealer techs told me, too). If the subframe was bent, my guy says it would not be able to be bolted back on. He also says If there was a subframe issue, the alignment wouldn't have been able to be completed correctly in August.
Rather, my body shop thinks something was reinstalled incorrectly when the Lincoln dealer was putting everything back for the engine work. Something put on left when it should have been right, up when it should have been down. Or something needs recalibration.
I am not pointing any fingers but it boils down to this: car was fine before bringing it in and now it's not.
If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. Anyone have advice or thoughts? Thank you!
-Rob
I got a check engine light on my 2017 3.0L a couple of weeks ago. Local Lincoln dealer diagnosed the issue as defective cylinder heads. Seemed surprising as the car only has 21,000 miles on it, but okay. The repair is complete.
While the car was in for this engine work, I asked the dealer to do an alignment on the car. This is because I had an alignment performed in August as a preventative measure. There were no issues with the alignment at the time, but since then I noticed an ever-so-slight pull to the left since then. The steering wheel though is pretty much dead center, though.
However, I received a call from the dealer that they were having trouble realigning the car. They are a bit stumped as to why. They claim everything suspension wise that is visible looks fine. Their thinking is that the subframe is bent and that the car was in accident.
For the record: I bought the car in 2019, Lincoln CPO (not from this dealer) with 9,100 miles on it. CarFax was fine. I was told it was never in an accident and there are no visible cues to this - no paint issues, no gaps, no bent wheels or other parts. Nothing visible. I have never been in an accident.
The only other clue/head scratcher is that the struts and hardware,, according to this dealer, look have been replaced with salvaged parts (see photos). They think this because of the yellow chalk - picture is of left side, right side looks the same - marking up the mounts "L" and the dots. I never replaced this in the two years I've owned the car, so if these were replaced, they were before I got the car in June 2019, but nothing was disclosed about this at the time.
I started to drive the car home from the dealer today and, well, it was pretty scary - and I've driven some classic cars that have left me stranded. At a stoplight, the steering wheel is dead center. But upon even slight acceleration it's like a ghost is driving. The steering wheel flies off to the right. Then when I slow down, it slowly recenters. The car didn't seem to actually pull much, but the wheel is pretty scary.
Of course, this never happened prior to me bringing the car in. Everything with regards to steering and alignment was 95% fine before bringing it in for the engine work.
I immediately drove back to the dealer and told them how shocked I was at how the car was behaving. At first, they told me I need a body shop to look to see if the frame is bent - but then decided to keep the car for a few days to investigate further. They want to bring it to their body guy to check.
However, in speaking with MY body shop guy he says it's very unlikely that there's a frame/subframe issue here. That is because he says the subframe just bolts on and bolts off (which is also what one of the Lincoln dealer techs told me, too). If the subframe was bent, my guy says it would not be able to be bolted back on. He also says If there was a subframe issue, the alignment wouldn't have been able to be completed correctly in August.
Rather, my body shop thinks something was reinstalled incorrectly when the Lincoln dealer was putting everything back for the engine work. Something put on left when it should have been right, up when it should have been down. Or something needs recalibration.
I am not pointing any fingers but it boils down to this: car was fine before bringing it in and now it's not.
If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. Anyone have advice or thoughts? Thank you!
-Rob
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
Not sure the "L" means it is from a wrecking yard. Could be.
Or it could have been removed by a shop for some reason and marked to reinstall.
Mac struts are not a common item to get at a wrecking yard. These are wear items. Kind of like getting a used air filter at a wrecking yard.
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Or it could have been removed by a shop for some reason and marked to reinstall.
Mac struts are not a common item to get at a wrecking yard. These are wear items. Kind of like getting a used air filter at a wrecking yard.
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2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII 2DR Coupe Diamond Anniversary 4.6l DOHC, 4R70W, 3.07
1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
2006 Lincoln Navigator Limited 5.4l 3V
1996 Lincoln Mark VIII 2DR Coupe Diamond Anniversary 4.6l DOHC, 4R70W, 3.07
1970 Continental Mark III Triple Black 460 4v, C6, 2.80 (Used for Woodward Dream Cruise or just generally stored in Michigan)
1966 Lincoln Continental 4DR Convertible 462 4v, C6, 3.00
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4DR Breezeway 410 4v, C6, 2.80
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
There are tons of YouTube videos of self rotating steering wheels on these newer cars with electric steering assist. While mechanically OK, modern electric power steering systems may act in very surprising ways.
1974 Lincoln Mark IV -triple black-
Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
Thank you all for your input. So yes, it was the dealer's shop error, this is what they told me:
"We dropped the subframe and removed the steering rack. We found out that steering rack was not sitting properly. We positioned it correctly and rechecked all the bushing and tie rods."
I got the car back a short time ago and it seems okay. Mistakes happen but I am disappointed that they dealer would let me drive out of there with a car that was not safe to drive. Not to mention, they had insisted everything was put back together correctly. So now of course I have a trust issue with them doing any work - and hopefully the cylinder heads (according to the write up, TSB 19-2243) were done correctly.
-Rob
"We dropped the subframe and removed the steering rack. We found out that steering rack was not sitting properly. We positioned it correctly and rechecked all the bushing and tie rods."
I got the car back a short time ago and it seems okay. Mistakes happen but I am disappointed that they dealer would let me drive out of there with a car that was not safe to drive. Not to mention, they had insisted everything was put back together correctly. So now of course I have a trust issue with them doing any work - and hopefully the cylinder heads (according to the write up, TSB 19-2243) were done correctly.
-Rob
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
Some may blow a head-gasket for seeing this, but trust issues are nearly intrinsic to dealership mechanic service. It's like all one needs for ASE certification is to know how to take a part off and swap in a replacement, which any trained orangutan can do. Diagnosis and repair is hardly taught them, if at all...but they do have an involved block of instruction on arrogance. So, that means they're incompetent and cocky about being incompetent; the only reason they may apologize for anything (and then only back-handed) is to mitigate the threat of lawsuit, should a customer show awareness of that course of action.
Dealer shops have never been any better than proper independent mechanics; on the contrary, they've been worse. The fact that, due to cars being overthought with too much AI dealer shops are practically required today, is a secondary point, as it does not have any betterment effect on dealers.
Only because your car is a mere 4 years old do I concede (begrudgingly) the requirement for dealer grease-monkeys...but if you can find someone who is versed on the setup of your car and is not connected with any dealer, stick to them. And I too hope they have not botched your engine's heads with their cocky incompetence.
---Tony
Dealer shops have never been any better than proper independent mechanics; on the contrary, they've been worse. The fact that, due to cars being overthought with too much AI dealer shops are practically required today, is a secondary point, as it does not have any betterment effect on dealers.
Only because your car is a mere 4 years old do I concede (begrudgingly) the requirement for dealer grease-monkeys...but if you can find someone who is versed on the setup of your car and is not connected with any dealer, stick to them. And I too hope they have not botched your engine's heads with their cocky incompetence.
---Tony
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet, just because there is a picture with a quote next to it." (Abraham Lincoln, 1866)
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1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
"Question Authority!"
1966 Continental Sedan, affectionately known as "Frankenstein" until body restoration is done (to be renamed "General Sherman" on that event)
Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
At a good dealer they are trained on new models and should know the car better then an independent shop. But in your case it seems like you were stuck with a bad technician and service advisor. Play it smart and go to another dealer or somewhere else for service.
1963 Continental
2007 Crown Victoria LX
and a couple Chryslers and Cadillacs
2007 Crown Victoria LX
and a couple Chryslers and Cadillacs
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
So a quick story about dealership mechanics. I have a client who used to work for a KIA dealership. Guy brings in a new KIA for enging work. Tech starts taking off the top of the enging and can't get it off. Keeps prying and prying and eventually it cracks. Turns out the tech didn't realize there were 6 bolts hodling the top on and not 5.....
Dealership ate the repair.....
Dealership ate the repair.....
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
In my daily travels, I drive by three dealerships, Ford, Toyota, and Chrysler. At any given time, they all have a sign out front that says "hiring technicians" . This makes me wonder. Are they all that busy, even in these Covid times, and with new car supply shortages? Have the qualified Techs all quit, because cars are so complicated these days? Are they all retiring, for some reason? So what are we left with? The kid that just got out of school. That's probably the one Stu, who screwed up the engine cover on the Kia. Just thinking, all...Wayne
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
I will throw in my wo cents. Mechanics, like all workers are human, some are better than others. In my opinion the problem is the flat rate system, where nothing is ever done quick enough for the bosses. When something is not working well, you need to slow down and figure it out, which is hard for a new guy to do with a screaming boss over his shoulder. This, in part, plus the low wages is why I left that field.
Remember, you are paying full shop rate on everything, the 1st year apprentice is making a fraction of that, and may well be on straight time, not flat rate. This is also part of the reason for the turnover Wayne referred to.
Sorry for the rant, I left that field in 1981, and still have bad memories.
Remember, you are paying full shop rate on everything, the 1st year apprentice is making a fraction of that, and may well be on straight time, not flat rate. This is also part of the reason for the turnover Wayne referred to.
Sorry for the rant, I left that field in 1981, and still have bad memories.
Fraser Noble, Western Canada
'62 and '67 LCC.
'62 and '67 LCC.
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Re: 2017 Continental HELP! Bent subframe? Crazy steering pro
Fraser, your response reminded me of what sometimes happens when one of us has car trouble at an LCOC or LZOC meet. We slow down, think it over with a half dozen friends, toss around possible solutions and THEN we act. Too bad the dealerships can't afford to do this. It might result in more satisfied customers. Wayne
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