The term "Classic"

[Deco]

I was looking (and partaking) in the thread about opening up the for-sale section to other non Lincoln/Continental cars. When the term "Classic" jumped out at me.

For years that term has been used to describe just about anything from the afore mentioned cars here to Datsun B-210's to just about anything else.

What does "Classic" really mean? Has it just become another adjective meaning "old"?

[Lugnut]

Ah, the age old question.

When it comes to vehicles of age, the term "Classic" has many definitions depending upon who or what organization you may ask the question. Most states apply the word "Classic" to any vehicle which may be in excess of 25 years of age. A pretty liberal definition if you compare to the purist collector car definiton of the Antique Automobile Club of America of anything produced before 1948 (or are they still sticking with the pre WWII date?)

Other terms such as "Collector Car", "Vintage Automobile", and "Special Interest Vehicle" are often used instead of "Classic."

As a matter of personal definition, I don't consider any vehicle that did not have an industry wide impact on body, suspension, or powertrain design a "Classic." Many limited production vehicles are "Classic" for various reasons, however; just because something is "old" doesn't mean it is a classic example of anything other than an old car. Vintage or Collectible yes, Classic no. In my mind the mass produced Model A is not a exactly a classic, while a 1939 Continental, a 1953 Corvette, a 1955 T-Bird or 1964-1/2 Mustang are really classics as they impacted the entire industry's thinking for years, and continue to conceptually do so.

[TonyC]

I agree with Lugnut's personal definition of the word, although not with all his examples.

The Mustang is by no means a classic, no matter what anybody may say (apologies to Mustang enthusiasts, but facts are facts). The Mustang was mass-produced like the Model A, to the point that you see at least one every day. On top of that, replicas of Mustangs are always being built; replacements of every component are available everywhere allowing one to build his own from nothing. That is not an indication of classic; that is cookie-cutter. The Mustang did not influence the industry beyond cementing the category of pony-car as part of the major market (it was not even the first pony car; the Studebaker Avanti was). Many categories came and went over the decades, especially in the '60s. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not hatin'--to its credit, the Mustang outlasted all other pony cars and in fact all other novelty cars of the time and still holds on. But it only added to the auto industry; it did not change the establishment.

There are also replicas being made of the 1953 Corvette and 1955 Thunderbird; those replicas compromise their statuses as classics because anyone can forge anything. There will be no guarantee that one is looking at an original. And again, the 'Vette and 'Bird just added another category of car; they didn't change the way cars were built.

The 1961-9 Continental does fall under the definition of classic. It was far more influential to the industry than anyone would publicly admit to. It changed the way all cars looked. It changed many construction practices, one example of which was the use of nylon timing gears--for better or worse, it was a change, and there were many others. It changed service intervals and warranty coverage. Starting in 1965, it changed the brake systems on all cars, even though it took several years for all makes and models to fall into step. That is enough impact to qualify the suicide Lincolns as modern classics. Some prominent sources of the time immediately labeled it as such, and these were old-school sources who defined the word as Lugnut did. It's just that so many flashy cars came along to take the limelight that few knew the impact the Continental had on the industry (even stubbornly refuse to acknowlege it). On top of that, try finding a kit car of this model; just try. Any suicide Lincoln you see will be authentic, guaranteed.

---Tony

[Lugnut]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but it was Chrysler who brought the uni-body construction to the big three and they were actually a somewhat me too of uni-body construction concepts developed by now long gone Hudson. Suicide doors? Brought back into existance by the 1957 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham. And brake systems, well as much as I hate to give them credit for anything, Mercedes introduced the basic brake system design used on '65 Lincolns several years prior to 1965. And then there is the anti-skid system, which was developed by Texas Instruments Military Systems Division as an offshoot of braking systems developed for military equipment purposes, most particularly aircraft.

In truth, there is very little of the '58-'68 Lincolns that was indeed unique to Lincoln, or developed by research at Ford. They do represent a collection of thoughts into perhaps a unique package, but nothing was uniquely Lincoln or uniquely new or fresh with exception of those years the breezeway rear window existed. That's not intended to bash the Lincolns of the era, as in many respects they were more advanced than their Cadillac competitor and certainly a more durable vehicle. There was a certain degree of stupid incorporated into Lincolns of the time though. Vacuum door locks and hydraulic wipers, to name a couple, when electric had already been established as the best and most proven by the whole industry.

[TonyC]

Granted, not original ideas. However, the applications of those practices were Lincoln's greatest contribution, and proving they could be used mainstream.

Nobody ever thought about using discs on a large American car; the Benz was anything but. The Avanti had standard discs, too, but nobody noticed it either.

The "unibodies" of Chrysler weren't full-fledged unibodies; they were called that because Chrysler welded (instead of bolting on, like the normal practice is/was) the bodies to the full frames, making them one piece. And originality? Nah, unibody construction was practiced as far back as the '30s.

The inspection and testing program wasn't original, either. They did it with the Mark II, and Duesenberg/Pierce Arrow did it sooner. But they never made it cost-efficient; Lincoln made that happen in 1961. Granted, the practice itself didn't spill over to the rest of the industry, but improvements that came from that program did change industry standards: Anyone remember the 1000-mile break-in check, or the 90-day/4000-mile warranty? If you don't, it's because of Lincoln.

Remember crazy sculpting and fins (known by one make as "The Forward Look")? If not, it's because of Lincoln. Slab looks were not new in and of themselves, but they were finally acknowledged by the industry by the Lincoln application.

[Deco]

After reading the above posts, Could "Classic" imply revolutionary vs. evolutionary?

If so then my '67 probably should be relegated to some evolutionary term. It is not a slab side as '61 through '65's were. Lincoln started to add style lines to the side, and changed the shape to look a little sleeker. And honestly, the front grille was inspired by the Cord 810/812.

Does my '67 get a reprive from an evolutionary term because it was the last 4-Door American convertible?

[TonyC]

Many feel that the '66-9 Lincolns lacked the luster of the first five years. They will argue that it started to look like anything else in Detroit. I don't feel that way. Yes, the '66-9 models don't have the same revolutionary status that the first five years did, but that's only because they came after the first five years (obviously), and the rest of the industry already abandoned the ridiculous sculpting and fins by 1966. So, in truth, it was the rest of Detroit that began looking like Lincoln, not vice-versa.

The later suicide Lincolns are evolutions of the revolution, and they kept such close ties with the first five years that they command the same overall respect and values.

[Lugnut]

If so then my '67 probably should be relegated to some evolutionary term.

I would personally think the terms "Collectible" or "Vintage" is most appropriate to a majority '60s and '70s era vehicles. Some will never be anything but vintage, meaning they are really not "Collectible" in the sense of anticipating any degree of investment appreciation based upon condition or age.

[Bob Hubbard]

As far as I know, and have always heard, "classic" meant any vehicle at leaste 25 years old,
I don't think it ever(in most circles) meant how a vehicle was put together.
According to the thinking of some of you who posted on this thread, if I add something to my new pickup that no other pickup has, it would become a classic.
I still think it relates only to the age of the vehicle.
As with "classic", I have always been led to belive once a vehicle reaches 50 years, it is considered an antique.

[Barry Wolk]

From the CCCA web site http://www.classiccarclub.org/

"One of the most common questions asked on this Web Site is: "What exactly is a Classic Car?" The Club defines CCCA Classics or Full Classicâ„¢ Cars as "...fine or unusual motor cars which were built between and including the years 1925 to 1948. (Some cars built prior to 1925 that are virtually identical to a 1925 model that is recognized by the Club are currently being accepted on a "Please Apply" basis). All of these are very special cars which are distinguished by their respective fine design, high engineering standards and superior workmanship." They were usually quite expensive when new with relatively low production figures. You won't find your Mom's '72 Plymouth Duster or your Grandfather's Model A Ford in the ranks of CCCA. We applaud other clubs who do recognize these cars and recognize that owning one can be a lot of fun, but they are not what CCCA is all about."

I spoke at length to members of the CCCA and the lady that is the head honcho. While my car fits all their criteria the age of my car is the only thing, in theirs eyes, that keeps my Mark II from being considered a "Classic". I still think its a classic.

I consider the '61-'69 Lincolns to have attained "Icon" status, like the Porsche Speedster. However, these were mass produced cars and that is very good for the collector because of parts availability, but bad because there were so many produced that the value is kept artificially low.

For example. Even though the Mark II's 2-year production never went much more than 3,000 they are still pretty cheap to buy today. Expensive to restore, but cheap to buy. Maybe that's why slabside prices haven't gone up all that much.

[Vitas]

"Classic car is a term frequently used to describe an older car, but what exactly is meant by that varies from person to person and organisation to organisation.

The Classic Car Club of America claims to have invented the term Classic car and thus they believe that the true definition of the term is theirs. According to the CCCA:

A CCCA Classic is a "fine" or "distinctive" automobile, either American or foreign built, produced between 1925 and 1948. Generally, a Classic was high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities. Other factors, including engine displacement, custom coachwork and luxury accessories, such as power brakes, power clutch, and "one-shot" or automatic lubrication systems, help determine whether a car is considered to be a Classic.
The Club keeps an exhaustive list of the vehicles they consider Classics, and while any member may petition for a vehicle to join the list, such applications are carefully scrutinised and rarely is a new vehicle type admitted.

This rather exclusive definition of a classic car is by no means universally followed, however, and this is acknowledged by the CCCA: while they still maintain the true definition of 'classic car' is theirs, they generally use terms such as CCCA Classic or the trademarked Full Classic to avoid confusion.

More common usage fundamentally equates Classic car with the definition of antique car as used by the Antique Automobile Club of America, who define an Antique car as one over 25 years old. Thus, popular usage is that any car over 25 years old can be called a 'classic car'.

25 years is generally considered a good cut-off age for such terms because it's extremely rare for a vehicle that old to still be owned or used without special consideration for its classic status - by 25 years old, a car will have exceeded its design life by some considerable margin, 10-15 years being the norm barring accidental loss. It will probably need significant maintenance to keep running, and many parts will be hard to obtain through the usual channels. Thus, a non-enthusiast will sensibly conclude that it is not feasible to continue using a car that old for regular driving.

This is not to say that an enthusiast of classic cars might not drive such an old vehicle daily, but that enthusiast will be willing to live with the greater difficulty of so doing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_car

Milestone Car Society " Certified Milestone Cars" List

Continental Convertible..................................1958-60
Continental Mark II......................................1956-57
Continental Mark III.....................................1969-70
Lincoln Capri............................................1952-54
Lincoln Continental.............................1946-48, 1961-67
Lincoln Continental Custom Limos (Lehmann-Peterson)......1963-67

http://www.myclassiccar.com/AboutMCC/vi ... list.shtml

[Dan Szwarc]

Why does the CCCA use 1925 to 1948? Did something happen before or after those years that requires exclusion from being called "classic"? Is it anything that is not arbitrary?

These definitions are arbitrary. So is anything we would conclude here. Although it does bring up good discussion.

[DavidB]

Prior contributions to thelincolnforum.net have been removed by the author.

[Lugnut]

These definitions are arbitrary. So is anything we would conclude here. Although it does bring up good discussion.

Certainly the definitions are arbitrary because they all fail to address the "emotional" factors we all have about "our" old car, regardless of when it was produced or how many were produced. There are few among us that have the car or cars we have without there being some more or less sentimental reason that is individual to each of us.

None of us are like Jerry J. Moore or Jay Leno who both have over a hundred rare vehicles, ranging from very limited production cars and the one last one remaining to the totally weird, such as Leno's all wood body boattail roadster. Those guys are on their own ego trip, which is fine. Most of us on the other hand are just fortunate enough to have the one or two cars that have special meanng to us from our younger years. That's what this hobby is really all about.

[Deco]

Thanks to all who have replied so far. I hope more will chime in.

When I started this thread, I had already come to the conclusion that "Classic" had become a marketing "spin" to sell an auto or auto related item for as much as possible. Coca-Cola went to "classic" when they relized the mistake with new Coke. "Old" and "Vintage" does not really motivate buyers (execpt with wine).

"Collector" also has been ground into the ground. How many "Beenie-Baby's" were sold as "Collector" items. Then there are those "Collector" cups you can get your slurpee in at 7-11 for any high-budget movie that comes out.

So is there any other views on what a "Classic" car is?

I agree with Lug's statement:

Certainly the definitions are arbitrary because they all fail to address the "emotional" factors we all have about "our" old car

I have my '67 for just those reasons.

Happy with my old car...